How to manage non-destructive edits in Photomator without excessive sidecar file size?

Hi, I have used Photomator a fair bit in the past myself, and use Photos as my main storage library.

I never managed to sort this myself either, using an iPad anyway. The sidecar files can be huge, as you say, typically 10x the original. It creates these with an uncompressed TIFF in the sidecar package, along with the editing metadata, thumbnails etc., and depends on the editing tools you apply. It stores these in a separate folder locally (or optionally on iCloud), regardless of whether you used Photos or not (to answer Richard's comments).

The JPGs in Photos are just Preview images, created for viewing. Likewise, I ended up only using it for editing old scanned photos and negatives, it's quite good at cleaning them up.

Once I'd completed the edits, and synced them in Photos, I deleted the Photomator sidecar files. It loses the non-destructive nature, but keeping them all just wasn't viable - besides, if I re-edit, I'd probably start again anyway.

It really limited the usage of Photomator for me, and I never bought the Mac version when I switched back to using a desktop.

However, if you're interested in a non-destructive Raw workflow that syncs across your Photos library, I use Nitro from Gentlemen Coders myself, as my main editing app. It's an excellent editor for getting the basics done, and it doesn't use inordinate amounts of storage for the non-destructive edits (I believe it used the Photos preview image to store the metadata and the edited version), the edited version doesn't seem to use much more space than a normal Photos edited image.

It can also save the edited previews as HEIF files, even as 10-bit versions with different colour profiles (I have all my devices using P3 now).

Richard.Taylor wrote:

It's good to hear from another Photomator user! I don't have TIFF files from Photomator. According to Finder I have eight "Photomator Edit Documents" that are mostly around 25MB.

I need to look at Photomator some more-- I don't think that I understand it…

Yes, the Photomator Edit Documents are not a single file it's a 'container' file. They are a kind of 'package', like the old 'pkg' files, or indeed much like a DNG is. They contain a bunch of files that are the files needed for that original image, so inside you might see a selection of smaller JPG thumbnails and Previews, as well as a full size uncompressed TIFF of the edited version, and metadata files containing other info, such as the editing data, EXIF that kind of stuff.

There were discussions with the old Pixelmator team, before they deleted the forums, but this was all explained at the time.

If you simply uncompress and convert a Raw image to TIFF, it'll be about 5x the size (Raws are usually compressed, some cameras have the option to use uncompressed Raws). A DNG is similar, in that it can contain a variety of files (Lightroom has options for that too), so you could even add the original Raw file as well as the converted DNG, and a bunch of various quality preview versions.

I'm not sure if a JPG original image causes a TIFF to be created in the Photomator edit file, or just a JPG, but the Photomator Edit files will be larger than a plain JPG, as they'll contain a rendered final image, along with the editing data and the previews and thumbnails.

I'm not so much a user of it now though, as I've scanned all my images I need, and they're fixed at the last time I used Photomator to edit them. I kind of held back using it much after they sold to Apple, and have become less certain of its future - that and the horrible way it uses the sidecar files.

Cheers

Richard.Taylor wrote:

TheWildRover wrote: Yes, the Photomator Edit Documents are not a single file it's a 'container' file. They are a kind of 'package', like the old 'pkg' files, or indeed much like a DNG is.

Actually, they were folders. Photomator is a package. But those folders do not appear now. The don't appear with a general search for Photomator, or for folders or for packages.

Sorry, I couldn't quite remember the terminology, hence the 'kind of' bit.

Just as a bit more information, I've just done a little bit of a test here with three different files, editing in Photomator, applying some ML editing, and noise reduction. I view the metadata in HashPhotos (as it can reveal the details of the hidden versions.

1. Old JPG from a compact camera. Shows as 2.9MB in Photos, HashPhotos confirms a 2.9MB original image, and 1.6MB HEIF rendered preview image. The Photomator-Edit file is 35.7MB.
2. Halide DNG/HEIF from my iPhone 17e. Shows as a 9.5MB HEIF original and a 14.9MB Raw, with a 3.8MB rendered HEIF preview image. The Photomator-Edit file is 97.6MB
3. Olympus OM-D Raw image. A 14.8Mb original Raw, with a 2.7MB rendered HEIF. The Photomator-Edit file is 99.5MB.

I kind of held back using it much after they sold to Apple, and have become less certain of its future - that and the horrible way it uses the sidecar files.

I saw Photomator as a way to get some masks and noise reduction for older jpg files. My Nikon files I either edit as jpgs, and sometimes that's enough, or as RAW in Lightroom.

Yes, I found the same with regard to the older JPGs, Photomator is a great tool for those.

I decided to switch from Lr a few years ago, and went with Photos as my main library, and only use external apps that integrate with Photos. I really didn't want a fussy setup if exporting and importing across apps.

Everyone wants a replacement for Lightroom, because of that subscription cost. I looked at Luminar Nitro and at Neo ages ago. I should look again. What do you like about Nitro?

I like Nitro because it manages the basics as well as anything else (exposure, colours, curves, etc.), but it has a few other handy features, such as some Raw fine tuning tools, masks, AI cleanup (although not as good as the new one in Photos) and can handle the new Raw v9 too. Its files are much smaller, the same photo in 3. above is rendered to 8MB at HEIF at 10-bit and P3 profile.

They also fully sync across devices too, so you can edit exactly the same on an iPad as you can on a desktop Mac (or indeed an iPhone).

Oh, and it also syncs with Photos Keywords and Star rating too now as well.

If you don't like using Photos, it also has a standalone asset management system. It's becoming quite a powerful too, especially when combined with Photos (IMHO).

Cheers

I'm not sure how you are generating this "sidecar" info. I use Photomator from with Photos, so the pictures are saved in the Photos Library, with edits stored in its database. I don't edit RAW pictures in Photomator, only jpgs. I hadn't paid any attention, but I see that when I export a jpg from Photos that was edited in Photomator, it seems to be about 10 times the size of the original. Wow! Another picture was 20MB original and 14 MB from Photomator.

Lightroom Classic has superior Masking and noise reduction with my Nikon's RAW files, so I can't get away from that. I take lots of pictures in low light, and LRc can't be beat. There I save the enhanced pictures as 100% jpgs and import them to Photos. There can be wild differences. I saw a 25MB jpg that became a 36 MB jpg export from Photos, and 13 MB jpg from a RAW file edited in Lightroom. Most Lightroom jpgs (from RAW) are about the same size as the Photos jpgs.

I'm not sure of the pattern…

Sidecar files created directly from Photomator by editing an image selected from a file. In this case a denoise action that created a sidecar file 10x larger than the original RAW file. I quite like the app, but this is unsustainable. I would be buying 2-4TB of new storage annually. I want to keep the original file, so the only option I can see is to do the non-destructive edit, then create a second (jpg or similar) image with the edits and then delete the sidecar file. This has just significantly increased the size of my workflow.

There must be a better way.

There are not many experienced regulars around here that use Photomator-- I may be the one! But I use Photomaotor only for editing jpgs, and mostly older ones. Photos itself has most of the editing tools I need for those, but sometimes masking the sky or something is very useful. And for older pictures, the noise reduction in Photomator is way better than in Photos. I don't use Photomator for RAW image files--LIghtroom is king, there.

It's good to hear from another Photomator user! I don't have TIFF files from Photomator. According to Finder I have eight "Photomator Edit Documents" that are mostly around 25MB.

I need to look at Photomator some more-- I don't think that I understand it…

TheWildRover wrote: Yes, the Photomator Edit Documents are not a single file it's a 'container' file. They are a kind of 'package', like the old 'pkg' files, or indeed much like a DNG is.

Actually, they were folders. Photomator is a package. But those folders do not appear now. The don't appear with a general search for Photomator, or for folders or for packages.

I kind of held back using it much after they sold to Apple, and have become less certain of its future - that and the horrible way it uses the sidecar files.

I saw Photomator as a way to get some masks and noise reduction for older jpg files. My Nikon files I either edit as jpgs, and sometimes that's enough, or as RAW in Lightroom.

Everyone wants a replacement for Lightroom, because of that subscription cost. I looked at Luminar Nitro and at Neo ages ago. I should look again. What do you like about Nitro?